Is there a place for real women in anime?
Women have a hard time in the media, just as in some areas of society. Anime’s no different. In fact, I’m sure it’s worse than most. I’m also sure there are plenty of issues at play — especially Japanese cultural ones, not to mention most anime’s lack of originality — but it’s a bit depressing. Too often, “strong” women in anime conform to one of three archetypes, which really aren’t strong at all. The easiest illustrations for these are their Evangelion examples.
Apologies (esp. to zaitcev) if I overstated the cheesecakey nature of the pictures that go with the post.
Noisy girl (Asuka)
She’s bossy, annoying, and/or tsundere. You can’t do anything right around her, and she’s probably more likely to punch you than give you the time of day. Take a look back to Tenchi’s Ryoko for a classic example, or another #1 Haremette, Love Hina’s Naru Narusegawa. The modern day goddess of anime, Haruhi Suzumiya, may not be the most stereotypical version but she sure fits the bill. Most of these characters don’t lack charm. Naru’s downright wonderful. So what’s the problem?
Noisy. Bad trait for a woman in Japanese culture, probably in western too when you get down to it. She doesn’t have to be barefoot in the kitchen all the time, but damn a woman’s should know her place! Besides, these days tsundere’s just another fetish (see the entire cast of Shakugan no Shana).
Frontin’ (Misato)
She is in over her head. She acts like she’s got it all together, but it’s all a facade for a scared little girl. Misato seemed like such the onee-sama, but she was an unstable house of cards.
Maybe it’s unfair to bring RahXephon into a conversation when Eva is your yardstick, but Haruka is another prime version of the Misato quasi-archetype. And though it takes her a long time to reveal it (and arguably it’s one of the main points of the series), Saya from Blood+ turns out to be just this. Kallen from Code Geass, though willing to don a bunny suit or ride ass-up for the Elevens’ cause, was kept going through the last days by her silly, girly attraction to Ledouche.
Why is this not really a strong archetype? She gets things done, no? Because underneath the front, she’s just another yamato nadeshiko.
Dr. Frankenstein (Ritsuko)
The Frankenstein character is consumed by her ambitions, never thinking to shout to the sky “My God, what have I done?” until it’s far too late. This is one of the few roles that gets equal billing on both the male and female side — but too often the female version reads like a morality play about how women really shouldn’t have too much ambition. Also, like Ritsuko, this character may have ulterior motives including maintaining an abusive relationship with her male counterpart — take Elfen Lied’s Shirakawa for instance.
Mix ‘n’ Match
Often times, there’s a mix of these going on, especially in the first two. After all, that extreme bossiness probably hides a deep desire for deep dicking to be loved and protected by a man. Macross’s Misa Hayase could lead the fleet into battle and stand firm in the face of the Zentraedi, but she was really just a waifu-in-army-clothing who needed the love of a hot-blooded pilot to be a complete person.
In the end, so many anime females are just fodder for your imaginary harem. Is your faith being shaken in the strength of anime women? Don’t worry, this post was written with inspiration from some of the medium’s true Women.
Where’s the real girl power?
Faye Valentine (Cowboy Bebop). What can you say about Faye? Sure, she thinks pretty highly of herself, but her often humorously irritating ways never devolve into the “noisy” archetype. Also, she kicks lots of ass.
Re-L Mayer (Ergo Proxy). Though she reveals her weaknesses often, Re-L gets the benefit of true character growth without reliance on archetypes. She goes from over-privileged and under-appreciative to someone truly willing to devote herself to a cause. And through it all, she maintains both vulnerability (in a so non-moe way) and strength. Because of that, she gets a gold star. (Though quite the modern woman, she’s fond of makeup).
Talho (Eureka 7). In an anime that’s all about growing up, even the girl who takes care of Holland had to do a little growing up herself. And in her “true” adulthood, she went from strong to really empowered. Even if she had to go through the stereotypical haircutting.
click for full neato image by the artist "kei"
Lafiel (Crest of the Stars). Ahhh. I get it now, why so many of you consider Lafiel to be the ultimate “mai waifu.” She’s got a sharp mind, most often evidenced by one of anime’s sharpest tongues. And while she’s not going to let her status afford her any special treatment, she never acts like a princess who’s denying her station either. Somehow, her sideways insults are a cut above those of the unoriginal hot-and-cold tsunderes.
Kaname Chidori (Full Metal Panic!). What, you say? She’s so bossy! And didn’t she prove in The Second Raid that she’s just a helpless girl? No! I tell you. She’s bossy but she cares, and she isn’t even afraid to show it. And her dramatic home-alone moment of weakness in TSR came less as the result of her being a girl and more because she was a normal girl, not a killing machine like Sousuke. In the end, Kaname has to stand on her own, and she does.
Click for full size "zaitcev edition"
What’s the connection?
I sense a theme. Really what I may be saying here is that we don’t find great female characters in anime unless we find great characters in general. Shows that don’t resort to the usual anime archetypes can find gold living inside their characters. [update: my point isn't just about realism, though, it's about marginalizing — see Joe's comment and my response underneath.]
So who’d I miss? Can anyone else here compete with the likes of Faye and Lafiel?
Good categorization for ‘fronting;’ however, I don’t see how these characters are just another ‘yamato nadeshiko.’ Please elaborate.
Also, I think you give Faye too much credit. She’s frontin’ so much and so well that she got the better of you. Note how she fell to pieces in the end [->]
As for examples of awesome female characters that are more or less lead characters that are given ample time to show a lot of what they’re made of:
Balsa, from Seirei no Moribito
Beneej Spoor from Crest/Banner of the Stars
Atosurya Febdash from Banner of the Stars
Frederica Greenhill from Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Hildegard von Mariendorf from Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Kihel Heim from Turn A Gundam
Diana Soriel from Turn A Gundam
Millya Fallnya Jenius from Macross 7
Any one of them can be mai waifu if they’d have me.
Yes indeed, that is why Lafiel is awesome.
I wonder if the fact that Saya is “frontin’” is the point, though — that she’s refusing the help that’s around. She definitely does fit the bill, but I’m not sure, in that case, it’s as pernicious as some other examples, because we’re supposed to see it’s not so good.
I’m wondering if Lina Inverse counts for a good example — I would say yes, but you could disagree. She’s loud, but generally because she has something to say, not just because she’s loud. She has the skills to back up what she says. She’s not really all that ambitious, really; she wants to live comfortably, enjoying life and making the world better in minor, helpful ways (that is, also helpful to her, like robbing bandits).
Heh, I’ll also have to second Balsa from Seirei for being an excellent example of someone who is capable and feminine without going to the extremes in the examples you used. She’s strong, very level-headed, and definitely cares for those around her. Because of that, I feel that she feels like a real person since her behavior is one that most people can identify with.
My friend sent me this post and I’m glad he did. You are right. The roles of women in anime are very stereotypical… it’s so stereotypical it’s sad. As my favorite female character of all time, I must nominate Sheryl Nome as well. She is so confident and independent, yet at the same time, she has her vulnerable moments. She proves that she’s not only a diva, but an outstanding character with tons of character development throughout the entire show. ^^
Awesome post btw~
Never shall I miss a chance to point out the cast of Haibane Renmei, or for that matter Revolutionary Girl Utena. Maka from Soul Eater too, although she’s more girl than woman.
I think I’d have to agree with ghostlightning on Faye, if only because she follows the path of (mostly) getting weaker as she gets more real to us. I guess Revy from Black Lagoon could be used here, in that she always remains insistently and unpleasantly strong.
I’m interested in your point “Shows that don’t resort to the usual anime archetypes can find gold living inside their characters” because presumably the archetypes apply to how the show hands out development to its cast. i.e. whether depth = an added layer of neurosis/weakness. After all, a character can be strong (directly and personally) but ‘unreal’ due to a lack of character-building time (Teresa from Claymore, the manager from DMC, Haruko from FLCL). Maybe, at a guess, it’s that lots of these stories save up the position of has-weaknesses-but-beats-them for the (male) hero while the rest of the cast are either underdeveloped or sub-heroic.
Balsa
Balsa
Balsa
Someone other than BalsaBalsa
Test
Stuff inside spoiler tags
Stuff after
Balsa is almost like a man imo
IMO Moyoco Anno’s Hataraki Man goes home with this post and teaches it how to be a man.
Ouran and Utena. That is all.
(Because Omo beat me to Hataraki Man.)
(Also, based on “real women” in the post title and “cheesecake” in one of the first sentences, I thought that this was going to be about women in anime with shall we say, more Real Drive proportions.)
i saw spear fight.
nao i watch anime.
Do they have to be adult women? Or is just acting the part ok? If so, Tomoyo from Cardcaptor Sakura. Wisdom and devotion and sacrifice and not a moment of crybabying.
Still fits your “only in anime with great characters in general” line, though.
@coburn
RE: Revy being “unpleasantly strong”
What a great way to put it! I agree.
@lelangir
Seirei no Moribito isn’t that much of an action anime, but what action scenes it does have is very well done.
@omo
It’s an old complaint by quite a few people how ’strong’ female characters are unfeminine. I see how Balsa can be a man, if you take away her woman bits she’s practically a male hero. But her being a mother for Chagum, despite never having a mother figure herself is notable I think.
To be fair, I think anime in general falls to stereotypes very often and that applies to the men as well. Whether it’s the complete loser harem leader, or the more brawns than brains shounen lead, or the very intelligent, but megalomanical ruler/psycho killer and so on. With that said, since anime’s such a y-chromosome driven industry, it seems inevitable that there are more “real” guys than “real” women.
For the list of “strong” female characters, I’d toss Maka Albarn from Soul Eater onto that list. I thought she showed tremendous growth in showing that she’s the true leader of her group and was a pretty unique character, difficult to fit into easy stereotypes.
What about Major Motoko Kusanagi?
@ghostlightning
I think in the context of this discussion, Hataraki Man actually answers your question about the “manly” woman. All women is some kind of woman and there probably isn’t a universal standard to what makes them a so-called woman, or what makes one woman more womanly or more real than another. It also flies in the face of this blog post.
Now, to appeal to reality, Balsa is borderline a superhero, so I don’t consider her particularly “real.” At least given the rather large number of other fine examples.
@otousan
Tomoyo is still just a girl. She may demonstrate some great virtues but…not a woman.
Perhaps this just how I see things, but are stereotypes part of the whole escapist aspect of anime?
Regardless of sex, anime is filled with all types of characters. While plot is definitely an important aspect of any medium, it will go nowhere without solid characters backing it up. And it the magical land of otaku, the whole standard for judging characters is a tad skewed. In other words, fanboys/girls will follow any character they attach to. And from this spawns some of the weaker stereotypes.
This all said, perhaps these stereotypes reflect a desire for something more out of people, both male and female? That these characters fill a void that humans wish would be filled by other humans? I find that when one ignores the fanboy-ish aspects of anime and hones in on the truly quality shows, there are some truly inspiring characters. And while these characters are merely characters, their origins lie in the minds of writers. This expands beyond anime into books, movies and stories as well, but the point is the same; people long for more, both in life and out of themselves. The sad part is that few actually stand out. Thus the vicarious living through anime.
It’s something that I think about a lot. Lelouch from Code Geass heavily affected me. Would I have the strength to do what he did? Or Kamina from TTGL. What if I was as passionate as he? Moreover, why am I not? What’s holding me back from these things other than myself?
And don’t even get me started on the relationships in anime. Perhaps it’s a knee-jerk reaction from the disgust I feel towards all the failed relationships I see (the US has a near 50% divorce rate). I only wish that I can at some point find a relationship that even comes close to the dedication that I see in some of the shows I watch.
I guess it all sounds cheesy, but I always wonder, “Why?” Why is it so hard for people to be inspired by this? Why do people just write the scenarios they see in anime off as unrealistic? Personally speaking, I would prefer to aspire to something greater than what society tells me is reality.
@ghostlightning
Maybe it was extreme to say that, at least in Misato’s case. After all, she attempted to get back with Kaji but it wasn’t a validation thing. One gets the impression, when looking at someone like Misa, that she needed validation/completeness from a man.
Maybe you and Coburn are right about Faye — two points to that:
1. It’s been a while since I saw Bebop
2. I’m probably getting too tied up in my last point, but while a strong female character has to be a well-written one, not all well-written characters are in fact strong.
Your other characters are all good examples (the ones I know), but oddly enough they’re almost all military folk. Not sure if there’s anything to that or not.
@Cuchlann
I would agree about Saya — it is a big point of the show, but I don’t think that negates her status. She still is a girl who needs to be protected and all that other Japanesey stuff.
I didn’t really think of Lina, perhaps because I (probably mistakenly) only included more serious stuff in my mental process. In some ways, including that lack of ambition, she resembles a real woman/person than many other characters so not a bad choice.
@zzeroparticle/Baka-Raptor/omo
I haven’t seen Moribito still, so I can’t really weigh in on Balsa (it’s on the list). Also, apparently I still need to fix the spoiler tags.
@Minnie
Sheryl Nome — great choice. She’s young, but she’s wise and tough beyond her years. Her vulnerability makes her believable but not weak, and her attitude is never too puffed-up or diva-like: she’s always got the pipes and the personality to back it up.
@coburn
I somewhat recently picked up Haibane Renmei, largely on your recommendation, but I haven’t gotten the chance to sit down with it yet.
Nice point. My examples also share the common factor of either having a female heroine or a strong ensemble of characters, which would seem to support you there.
@jpmeyer
That was an earlier draft, “Is there a place for healthy women in anime?”
@mikeski
She is a decent character, but I definitely would hesitate to include her because of her being a child. Any kid acting the adult part is setting up for a fall in a part of the story that we just haven’t seen yet. I realize that’s speculative, but I just don’t see kids fitting the bill. Kaname and Lafiel are almost too young to make the list as it is. Also, there’s yuri, whatever that introduces into the mix.
@RP
Maka, like Tomoyo, certainly shows potential to be on the list. She doesn’t seem to be very strong with interpersonal relationships all the time, but Soul Eater really didn’t focus on those very much so it’s hard to say there.
And you’re right — ”real” men rarely show up, either. I would cite Simon from TTGL as a great recent example, but most manly men fall somewhere in the Kamina (or worse, Kenshiro) range. But being GAR is as ok as being moe: this isn’t the real world, and as much as I’m the guy who wrote this post I understand that we don’t always need reality.
@Kiri
Being a robot, she was disqualified pretty much immediately. All bets are off with a robot, and you can’t talk about her personality without going at least a little ways into Shirow’s whole point about machine intelligence and the “what is human” question, which is a whole ‘nother ball of wax.
@Joe
Well, stereotypes and archetypes certainly are part of anime, and see my response to RP, but you’re reinforcing my point by bringing up Lelouch or Kamina.
When anime gets a hold of male characters and turns them into sketches or archetypes, it glorifies and makes them larger than life. All too often it does the opposite with women, marginalizing them. That, if you are a girl watching the show, is not something to aspire to. It’s not about reality at that point: it’s about which direction you travel from reality.
To be fair to NGE, I don’t think it singled out women for marginalization. Shinji was more or less a complete failure, a great deconstruction of the traditional giant robot heroes. NGE was less a show about how much women sucked and more a show about how much people sucked (which, apparently, is a lot).
However, they do make great examples to display the weakness which so many mediums view as implicit in the female character. I personally despise how males are portrayed as strong and righteous, because, as a male, I feel no sense of identity with these guys who are just awesome and always succeed in all their problems. I really dislike flawless characters in general, except in Eureka Seven, because dammit, they earned it.
For more anime women who are actually strong I submit:
Noriko Takaya, Gunbuster. Saves the world, essentially the standard giant robot hero except she’s a girl, wtf? Just saying.
Haruhara Haruko, FLCL. Contrary to popular belief, she’s not in love with atomsk, she just wants that power to herself, which is badass. Admittedly, she’s a fucking freak, but nonetheless, strong.
Eri Ninamori, FLCL. My favorite FLCL character, this coming from a guy who’s watched the show over ten times. She starts off totally frontin’, but ends up keeping it real, and, while not a particularly ass kicking, in your face kind of strong, does come to understand her own feelings and her place in her family. Also, she’s not totally on Naota’s nuts even though she has kind of a thing for him. In a show filled with ridiculous, outright allegorical characters, she’s one of the most real strong characters I’ve ever seen.
@Hobojoe
Yep, I think you nailed it on both counts — that was my intent (And yes, Anno must have really hated people at the time).
Noriko is the cheese. You’re right on. Incredible sense of self-sacrifice, a plow-forward attitude (dare I say Hard Work And Guts?) and as a bonus the superpower of tearing her shirt open just so the whole mess doesn’t get too old-school feminist.
Ninamori I would place firmly with the other characters that I called too young — she does grow, and her episode is my favorite of the series, but if FLCL proves anything it’s that adolescence is a really tumultuous time and it’s a little hard to say what kind of young woman or adult she might turn out to be.
Obviously you can guess, and that age rule is totally arbitrary, but yeah. Your points are good — though she’s as allegorical as the rest, she does work better than them on a strictly character level. I could ramble for ages about FLCL, not gonna do it XD
You forgot Michiko.
Probably one of the strongest willed women in anime/manga would have to be Integra Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing XD I mean hell she commands a Vampire!
Though I think at times she’s so strong willed people have actually questioned her gender…
Lacus from Gundam Seed isn’t particularly weak either, for all her pink haired cuteness, she wasn’t afraid to battle.
Tsunade from Naruto, not only is she a woman but the strongest ninja in the village since she is Hokage. Well was, she’s at death’s door currently thanks to Pain.
But still she gave every last ounce of her strength to protect her entire village.
I also have a fondess for Fuu from Samurai Champloo. Sure she needed the guys when it came to getting out of a scrum, but she had a lot of smarts about her too.
They were the brawn she was the brain, well okay she was the brain when Mugen was around, since Jin wasn’t that stupid really.
I have to agree some of the simpering, foolish females bug me, but then I guess there are just as many idiotic males in anime too. So I guess it balances itself out.
I just stumbled upon this page and figured I’ll add my 2 cents:
After reading the article, and the comments, I must point out that anime as is not limited to its “shonen” part.
Every example cited her,Evangelion, FLCL, Naruto, Full metal panic, Black lagoon, etc… is a show aimed at a (young) male audience, and reflect how those boys/men view of what a “strong woman/girl” means: scary/annoying, overly protective/motherly or abusive. But always with an hidden flaw to insure that, however strong they appear, the guy watching the show is conforted in the belief that they still can be brought to “know their place” (to quote the article).
If you take a look on the “shojo” side, you’ll find much more realistic “strong women”. I’m a guy, so I don’t watch much of it myself, but I think you can find more realistic strong girl there. Since the audience is female, the characters tends to be less caricatural. They are not a supporting cast for the reader’s fantasms (unless it’s yuri), but heroin to identify to.
A few exemple: Yukino Miyazawa in KareKano, Nana Osaki from “Nana” (despite having a “scared little girl” past, she’s not over the top like Misato or Asuka),Caroline in Paradise Kiss…
I’m surprised nobody mentioned any of the Miyazaki anime leads. Mononoke Hime, Spirited Away, Naussica, Howl’s Moving Castle, etc.
Almost all of Miyazaki’s female leads are strong characters, in a good way.
You over analyzed the “female stereotype” to death while failing to do the same for the male stereotype. Most shounen anime have an unrealistic main character (either physically or mentally) and most harem or shojo anime have a male lead character who is atypical of society.
Its all about catering to your demographic. Harem is aimed at men, so they make it more fanservicy and usually have the underdog as the focus of the harem. Shounen is aimed at both genders so the characters have to appeal to both. Yaoi/bishounen media is aimed at women so the characters are appealing to them. Its part of any like industry. Look at american tv. For the most part the men and women are unrealistic because its more appealing for the audience.
You picked 3 examples from Neon Genesis Evangelion and briefly gazed over other similar characters, whereas you picked specific characters to make your point.
There is no point in over analyzing an entertainment media for trivial things like this. So a few characters don’t act the way you want them to. Tough luck, that is the point of their character. Would the characters evolve the way they have without the woman in a role to enable them to do so? Why do you get to dictate what is or is not a real woman? I have known a few that fit both sides of the stereotype.
You just see a couple that you don’t like and think that you have the right to say what a real woman should be. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you are the one with the unrealistic stereotype?
Anyway blame stumble and my natural distaste for anything sounding like feminism. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against equal rights for all, but that’s the problem: equal must be equal for all. Take a look at anime aimed at a female audience and you will see some other stereotypes that effect the male characters. It is not a one way street, it goes both ways. Understand that before you make some conceited statement like this.
The female characters in NGE say (and were meant to say) a lot about the mentality of Anno (and thus of Shinji, if you buy that whole interpretation) and his perception of women. It’s somewhat shortsighted to dismiss them as stereotypical — they are, but for a reason. Anno uses the big anime archetypes very purposefully all throughout the series, and if something seems overly simplistic it’s usually a red flag that something else is going on behind the scenes.
In several of the conversations during EoE this comes up — I don’t feel like looking it up now, but Asuka says something like “You’re afraid of Rei and Misato, so you come for me.” That may or may not be what Asuka actually thinks (it probably is, but it might not be her actually saying it), but it accurately represents Shinji’s mindset at the time. At that point in the show he doesn’t want a fully realized human being to know and respect — he just wants someone to give him simplistic and unconditional affection, and he doesn’t particularly care who. Actual social interaction and the intricate nuances that define real people are precisely the things he’s afraid of.
Character development like this is one of the most interesting parts of NGE, but it’s a mistake to see the characters as realistic or even original. There are certainly no role models in Eva.
So, where in anime do you see real “girl power” as you put it? Haibane Renmei is full of realistic and strong (mentally/emotionally of course, not physically) female characters. I’d also argue for Kino to be included on the list, though her ambiguity toward her own gender might disqualify her. Cardcaptor Sakura has a few that might fit (though they’re children, not women), and it has excellent characters in general.
What does “real” women even MEAN?
Do you mean to say that a “real” woman is definitively the equivalent of a strong female character? That’s just not the case. Both men and women can be both weak and strong.
Evangelion’s characters are called realistic because they don’t conform to that sort of fallacies. They aren’t SUPPOSED to be strong; they’re flawed and screwed up, just like the males.
THIS. So much! Thank you for this comment, because it really gets to the heart of the issue of male archetypes versus female archetypes. There are negative male stereotypes too, of course, but even the grossest oversimplification of male traits tends to be seen in a more positive light than that of female traits.
I enjoyed reading your post and the comments after – interesting discussion! And, I’m just glad that someone else is discussing issues such as these in a mature, thoughtful manner. I think that your intention is really awesome and commendable.
I do have to wonder, like a commenter above, though, what your definition of a “real” woman is. I think that what you are trying to say, is that women in anime fall into character patterns that are demeaning to women, and don’t generally portray fully realized, three-dimension women with “real” thoughts, emotions, desires, ambitions, identities, etc – apart from their relationship with men. And I’m entirely with you there – although there are plenty of counter examples and examples of extremely strong, independent women in anime. (I’m glad someone above mentioned Integra Hellsing from Hellsing, because she is my anime hero!)
@AnnoyedAnon – I know you probably won’t ever read this, but I really couldn’t NOT respond to your comments.
Why is it that we can’t have a discussion about female archetypes without discussing male ones, too? In the reverse situation, would you also argue in a post about male archetypes that you can’t have a discussion of them without female archetypes? Somehow I doubt it. Saying that you “aren’t being fair to the men” derails the intent of the discussion, which doesn’t have anything to do with male characters or their stereotypes (of which there are plenty, of course). There is no reason that we can’t have a discussion of female archetypes, and to say that you can’t “because you didn’t mention the men” is being wholly unfair to the subject which otou-san is trying to bring to light.
As to your other point, there is so much good in analyzing entertainment media for things like this! It’s exactly this kind of criticism that can lead to people thinking about the media they consume, and thinking about the kind of ideas and stereotypes they propagate. Would you say that it’s not worthwhile to analyze 40’s and 50’s era American cinema for the racial stereotyping that went on, as well as filmmakers that were trying to subvert it? What about now? If anime continues to portray women in a negative light (and others, too! Racist stereotypes abound in anime, alongside gender stereotypes and others) and no one questions it, will it ever stop? If no one stops to think, hey, maybe we shouldn’t be encouraging shows that only show one type of female character, then we won’t ever progress to a point where we won’t need these discussions.
Being critical of the media you consume is part of being a smart consumer and aware of the cultural influences that surround you. If no one ever questioned the way women were treated in American media, you’d never see a black woman on tv, or a female doctor, or a female firefighter, or any other sexist stereotype-breaking women. Blindly accepting these issues as “trivial” is an immature way to think, and I commend otou-san for thinking and writing critically about them.
My last parting shot is this: distaste for feminism = distaste for women. “Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.” Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler
@ Caddy C
i think that parting shot of yours is a bit unfair. Like saying Distaste for baseball = distaste for the players. I’m sorry but i find this kind of behaviour immature. Good and intelligent post on the whole though.